"Religious Pluralism and the Origin of Life" (BG 10.6)

TRANSCRIPT:  Bhagavad-gītā, Chapter 10, Text 6. “Religious Pluralism and the Origin of Life.” Philadelphia – September 5, 1993 / (704)

[Text 6:

The seven great sages and before them the four other great sages and the Manus [progenitors of mankind] come from Me, born from My mind, and all the living beings populating the various planets descend from them.]

Purport:

The Lord is giving a genealogical synopsis of the universal population. Brahmā is the original creature born out of the energy of the Supreme Lord, who is known as Hiraṇyagarbha. And from Brahmā all the seven great sages, and before them four other great sages, named Sanaka, Sananda, Sanātana and Sanat-kumāra, and the fourteen Manus, are manifested. All these twenty-five great sages are known as the patriarchs of the living entities all over the universe. There are innumerable universes and innumerable planets within each universe, and each planet is full of population of different varieties. All of them are born of these twenty-five patriarchs. Brahmā underwent penance for one thousand years of the demigods before he realized by the grace of Kṛṣṇa how to create. Then from Brahmā came Sanaka, Sananda, Sanātana and Sanat-kumāra, then Rudra, and then the seven sages, and in this way all the brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas are born out of the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Brahmā is known as Pitāmaha, the grandfather, and Kṛṣṇa is known as Prapitāmaha, the father of the grandfather. That is stated in the Eleventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā (11.39).

om ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ 

śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale

svayaṁ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṁ dadāti sva-padāntikam

So, this verse is describing the creation of the different living beings within the entire universe. So, Kṛṣṇa is saying that all of these beings are coming from Him, and the process of creation involves the generation of different progenitors, or Prajāpatis, from Kṛṣṇa’s mind. And then, by descent from these different progenitors, all the different populations within the universe have come into being. So this is the understanding given in the Vedic literature of the origin of the human species and all other species of life. Not just on this planet but on many other planets throughout the universe. So in the introduction, as Advaita Acarya Prabhu was pointing out that, actually, there’s no contradiction between science and Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So actually, that’s true, if you understand science according to the correct meaning of the term. First, the word “science” comes from Latin from scire, which means “to know.” So, science is actually the equivalent to the word veda, which is a Sanskrit word meaning “knowledge.” So, science and the Vedas should certainly agree that knowledge is the same everywhere in this human knowledge. Knowledge should always be [unclear]... knowledge.

However, there is another form of so-called knowledge, or false knowledge, you can call “nescience,” and that tends to develop within human society. So, much of what we call science today, actually, has nothing to do with science. The fundamental idea behind modern science is quite correct. But in the application of some of those ideas, some concepts have been developed, which, in fact, are not correct. Of course, from the point of view of the scientist, this should not be seen as an unacceptable criticism because the very spirit of modern science is to continually revise our knowledge, knowledge that has not yet reached perfection, and continually makes changes and improvements, which would bring us closer and closer to genuine knowledge. So, that is the actual service of science.

[4:34]  

So, I wanted to say a little about some scientific investigations that we’ve been doing in the Bhaktivedanta Institute. In one sense, it could be said that we are challenging some of the concepts of modern science. Coming from another point of view, actually, we’re [unclear] in science, and we’re just continuing along the lines of scientific investigation. So one particular topic that Śrīla Prabhupāda wanted us to investigate in the Bhaktivedanta Institute was the question of the nature and origin of life: What is life, and how does life originate? Where does it come from?

So the modern scientific conception of life is that life is a chemical phenomenon. The basic idea is, we have atoms, which are made of subatomic particles – electrons and protons and neutrons – and these atoms can bond together to form molecules. So the scientific study of how atoms bond to form molecules is chemistry, and with some particular subdivision of chemistry called biochemistry, in which chemicals in the living bodies are studied. So especially in the last… well, since about 1953, tremendous progress has been made in this field of biochemistry. Actually, this started in 1953 with the discovery of the spiral helix structure of DNA by Crick and Watson. So since then, the idea has become very well established that life is merely a phenomena of chemistry. Living bodies are simply arrangements of molecules which are interacting with one another, according to the laws of chemistry and physics, and that’s what life is. Life is nothing more than that. And the modern concept is that life originated by chemical processes. 

The general theory is that, if you go back maybe three billion years or so in the history of the earth, you will find that, at that point, there was no life, but there were oceans and other bodies of water which were [unclear] chemicals that were building up in various natural processes. And due to reactions among these different chemicals, somehow living cells originated, and then they multiply and grow and so forth. And then, an evolutionary process took place. It’s hypothesized that as these cells reproduced, mistakes occurred in their reproduction so they varied slightly. And those cells that were improved by the accidental variations would actually reproduce more vigorously than the others, and they were better adapted to survive in their various environments. And so in this way, over generation upon generation of living organisms, change has accumulated that has tended to improve the species. And all different species that we know of today, in this way, gradually evolved entirely by physical processes. 

So this is the theory that has now become quite prominent. In fact, this is the only intellectually respectable theory that exists at the present time in the world.  [unclear]... in the “Parliament of the World’s Religions,” held in Chicago, which I was just attending. So basically, that is the present theory. The process of evolution is said to eventually produce apes, and then finally, the apes evolved into human beings very recently. The oldest human being of modern form – that is, human beings that looked like ourselves, according to this idea, dates back maybe a hundred thousand years, and would have lived in Africa. And the first appearance of human beings like ourselves in Europe would date back to about 35,000 to 40,000 years according to the modern view. So this differs a little bit from the account given here in the Bhagavad-gītā. So let me say a little bit about that.

Kṛṣṇa was giving, of course, a very brief account in that one verse. He mentioned seven sages. Now these seven sages are very concrete and real individuals. As I was saying, I was just at the Parliament of Religion, where it seemed that the general consensus was that such figures are either mythological, or they are symbols referring to some kind of impersonal process, or shape of being, or modality of physical interaction, or something like that. This is the kind of viewpoint that is very popular. But actually, the seven sages are [unclear], and they live in what we call the Big Dipper. That constellation has seven prominent stars, and you can see that up in the northern part of the sky. And each one of these stars has been the place of habitation of one of these seven sages – Saptarṣis, they’re called. That’s the Sanskrit word which means seven sages. 

[10:23] 

So, then, four other sages are mentioned – the four Kumāras – they live on a higher planet, Tapaloka, and also, the Manus are mentioned. Specifically, there’s reference to fourteen Manus. The Manus are specifically the progenitors of mankind. In fact, it’s been argued that our word “man” actually comes from “Manu.” I don’t know if that’s the correct etymology or not. But, in any case, it is described that there are successive ages during the daytime of Brahmā. And in each of these successive ages, there is a presiding personality known as Manu for that age. And from Manu, the human race descends within that particular age. According to the Vedic literature, the human race has actually come into being and been annihilated many, many times. It’s not that the human race just evolved once, let us say, from apes, and that’s the end of the story. The human race… human beings were existing, actually, on this planet billions of years ago. In fact, as far back as two billion years ago, according to the Bhāgavatam. However, we’re not descended from any of those human beings because their race was annihilated also more than a billion years ago. 

So, there have been many creations and annihilations of the human species. And each time the human race appears on the earth, it does so through descent from different great personalities, such as the Manus or different great sages. In the most recent creation of the human race, people descended from Vaivasvata Manu. Vaivasvata Manu is actually the seventh Manu during this day of Brahmā, and he has been in the post of Manu for about 120 million years, according to the Vedic chronology. So the most recent descent of humans from Vaivasvata Manu occurred much more recently, about two million years ago. And, at that point, one of Vaivasvata Manu’s sons, named Ikṣvāku, became a king of the earth. So, Vaivasvata Manu, which, in his own right, is the son of Vivasvān, who is the presiding deity of the sun. 

So, according to Vedic literature, all of the different planets of the universe are inhabited, and that even includes the sun. So the beings on the sun, we have bodies which are basically human in form, but these bodies are constituted with elements that are suitable to the environment of the sun planet, namely, they are built from the fire element. So for a person who has a body of this type, the sun is a very appropriate and pleasant environment in which to live.  So we have an interesting situation in which you go from a being of, essentially, a fire body to his son, Vaivasvata Manu, and then his son is a human on the earth, and he lives on the earth. And, of course, that body is mainly composed of water and earth. So there’s a transformation in the substance of the bodies from the basic human form – the basic human characteristics are preserved in this transformation. So this gives you some information on the Vedic account of the creation of the different living beings.  

Actually, the underlying principle of life, according to the Vedic literature, is independent of the specific material substances of which the gross body is composed. The underlying principle, the fundamental principle, is the jīvātmā, or the soul, which is actually transcendental to matter. So this soul is the actual living being. Some souls are said to be liberated, and they exist entirely in the spiritual domain of being, and they don’t have gross physical bodies or subtle bodies. Other souls are said to be conditioned, so a conditioned soul is enclosed within a subtle body made of mind, intelligence, and false ego. So these are subtle elements distinct from the elements that we know of in modern science. Science, as we know it today, has not yet come to the point of investigating mind, intelligence, and false ego. 

[15:40]

However, these are energies that are just as real and, actually, just as physical and material as the energies that have been studied in modern science. So, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that I have eight separated energies, and these are mind, intelligence, and false ego, and then ether, air, fire, water, and earth. So the last five – ether, air, fire, water, and earth – are called the gross material elements. So the conditioned soul, surrounded by the subtle body of mind, intelligence, and false ego, is also given a gross body made of ether, air, fire, water, and earth. And actually, within all the different gross bodies of different beings within the universe, all of these five elements are present – or actually, all eight of them – the mind, intelligence, and false ego are also there. But the elements can be present in different proportions. For example, some bodies within the universe are predominantly made of the element of ether. This is true of the devas, or demigods. So, ether is the basic fabric of space, so their bodies are very subtle, and also very powerful. There are others whose bodies are predominated by the fire element. And, as I mentioned, this is true of the beings living on the sun planet. And in general, there are different proportions of the elements in the bodies of different types of living beings. So, all of these different beings descend, ultimately, from Kṛṣṇa.  

Kṛṣṇa generates an original living being within the universe named Brahmā, and from Brahmā, different Prajāpatis descend. And, from them, there are other generations of demigods and ṛṣis of different kinds, and from these there are further generations and many different species. So, in total there are 8,400,000 species of living beings within the universe, according to the Vedic literature, and these 400,000 are said to be human forms. So basically there are 400,000 human types within the universe. So that’s a brief summary of the Vedic conception.  

So that’s quite different from the modern picture. Actually, according to the science, on the earth it is said that about two million species have been counted. That should give you a figure to compare to the 8,400,000. However, these numbers are not really comparable because there’s a question as to what counts as species. In zoology, there are people called “splitters" and people called “lumpers.” And, typically what will happen is the splitters will go to a given place and count a large number of species, and if the lumpers go there, they’ll find a small number. So, it’s a bit subjective as to how you tell between one species and another. So, the number of species is not so meaningful in that regard. That number could change quite a lot depending on how you classify species. So anyway, 400,000 species of human life is quite a large number. Just to give an example of that, one important point to realize is that we don’t know much about all of these species. We can see why that is if you consider how big of a book you would need to tell you about 400,000 different species of life. For example, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam has 18,000 verses. So, if you wanted to describe each species of life with only one verse, you’d have to have 400,000 verses, which is over a hundred times the volume of the Bhāgavatam. So there’s several brief descriptions of these different species of life.  

[19:57]  

One interesting point that you can make concerning this is that the different species of life as described in the Vedic literature give us a very broad perspective of religious pluralism. I mention this because, of course, I was just at this “Parliament of the World’s Religions.” So of course, the whole point of that meeting was… people wanted to know how to deal with religious pluralism – the fact that there’s so many religions in the world. And of course, the existence of different religions has caused quite a bit of trouble over the centuries. People will have a particular religion, and they’ll think: Well, my religion is right and the other religions are wrong!  And so then, people with these views will fight with one another, and there are terrible wars and persecutions and so on and so forth. So people want to know how to deal with that. So the history of this parliament of religions goes back to a person named Vivekananda, who spoke at the first Parliament of World Religions, which was held in Chicago, back in 1893. So, this present meeting was the centennial celebration of that. 

So Vivekananda introduced an approach to religious pluralism, in which he proposed to harmonize all the different religions of the world through Māyāvādī philosophy. Now, what I’m referring to there is the philosophy which says that, ultimately, the absolute truth is impersonal. This philosophy approaches the absolute truth through the method called neti neti, in which you discriminate between what is material and what is spiritual. And basically, the process involves identifying a given concept within your mind, seeing that that is material, and then saying the absolute truth is not like that – in this way, eliminating all the material aspects and arriving at subtle concepts of the absolute truth. So the general approach, then, is to say that the absolute truth must be impersonal. Because we see that personality is something here in the material world, we have a material conception of personality, and so our process of Vivekananda will, then, include the absolute impersonal. 

Well, similarly, by this process, one must conclude that any particular description of the absolute truth is not literally correct because it is based on material concepts. So then, there’s the idea that it can point towards the absolute truth. So this leads to a certain approach to harmonizing the world’s religions. One says that all of these religions are different symbolic representations of the absolute truth, and they all work towards the absolute truth. None of them are actually literally correct, but you have harmony because they’re basically all on the same platform. They’re all equal; they’re all equivalent because they all refer indirectly to the absolute truth, but not directly. 

So this is an approach to harmonizing different religions, and a lot of people thought that this is very good. It’s a very popular approach. But the problem with it is, it actually eliminates all religions, except for that religion which holds that the absolute truth is impersonal and that all other religions are simply systems of symbols which indirectly refer to that absolute truth. In other words, all religions which would not hold that viewpoint are then eliminated. So this means that one, in fact, does not harmonize the world’s religions very nicely because, in fact, there are many systems of religion in the world in which people will very strongly disagree if you try and tell them that, actually, the real meaning of your religion is that all these symbols you have are not to be taken literally, and they just refer to some very abstract, impersonal conception of the absolute. So then the question is, well, what can you do about the diversity of religions? Well, the Bhāgavatam, in fact, gives a different approach to harmonizing religions. And what it says is that, first of all, the absolute truth is not impersonal – the absolute truth is quite real, and in fact, is personal in nature. From the Supreme Personality of Godhead many emanations have expanded. In particular, all different beings in the material world descended from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. All of these different beings are in different states of consciousness. But in the material world, in particular, all of the different human forms of life are in different states of consciousness based on a combination of the three modes of material nature.  

[25:15] 

So, the ultimate goal of religion is to elevate the consciousness of the human beings in all of these different species. Because these different human beings are in different situations based on different combinations of the modes of material nature, different systems of religion have, in fact, been propagated by the Supreme Personality of Godhead for the purpose of elevating these different living beings. So, there's an interesting statement of this in the Bhāgavatam, which shows [unclear]. It says:

From the forefathers headed by Bhṛgu Muni and other sons of Brahmā appeared many children and descendents who assumed different forms as demigods, demons, human beings, Guhyakas, Siddhas, Gandharvas, Vidyādharas, Cāraṇas, Kindevas, Kinnaras, Nāgas, Kimpuruṣas, and so on. All of the many universal species, along with their respective leaders, appeared with different natures and desires, generated from the three modes of material nature. Therefore, because of the different characteristics of the different living entities within the universe, there are a great many Vedic rituals, mantras and rewards.  

So, this description in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is giving a very broad picture of what the Vedic, rituals, mantras, and rewards are – because this does not refer simply to a particular set of śāstras in India. It’s referring to the system of religion on many different planets throughout the universe, as followed by many different classes of beings. So this is an extremely broad picture of religious pluralism. So that’s one interesting aspect of the Vedic literature. Actually, there’s no condemnation of any bonafide system of religion. However, at the same time, not all of these systems are on the same platform because people are in different states of consciousness, some higher and some lower. But no matter what state of consciousness a given group of human beings is in, there’s some system of religion which they would tend to properly follow to elevate them to a still higher stage. So, that’s the basic system within the universe. So, let’s see how the time is going here. Uh oh!  

So I'll just say a little bit more here about this particular subject matter. [unclear] have been doing some research on this question of the nature and origin of life. In particular, we’ve been looking into the question of the origin of human beings. There’s a modern scientific theory of the evolution of man from the ape, and we investigated that. Recently, we have published a book on that subject, which is called Forbidden Archeology. So this book deals with the archeological evidence for human antiquity. And, basically, one main point is demonstrated within this book, is that there’s extensive evidence that, in fact, has been uncovered and studied by scientists that human beings have been living on this earth for many millions of years, going back as far as 55 million years ago. We are giving here specific evidence that has been studied by scientific investigators, mainly in the latter part of the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century.  

So this broadly supports the Vedic chronology for the history of life on this planet because, according to the Vedic conception, humans should have been existing for many, many millions of years. It also illustrates another interesting feature of our Vedic chronology, namely, that, in the repeated creations of human society on the earth, human society will repeatedly show the same cultural manifestations. Actually, human culture is also created by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The modern concept that prevails today is that human culture has developed through an evolutionary process, just as the human body has. But, in fact, according to the Vedic understanding, different types of human culture are manifested as the human societies are created. So, that means we could go back many, many millions of years and find a society just like the particular human society of today, if, in fact, that type of human society had been manifested at that time. So this book also illustrates a remarkable continuity of ancient types of human culture. So this is one book that we have.  

[31:05]  

Another book we recently published – this is called Alien Identities, and it’s on the subject of UFOs. This subject has – by the way, is actually quite relevant to this theme that I’ve been talking about today. Of course, this is a controversial subject. Actually, the archeology book is also controversial. In [unclear], it’s Forbidden Archeology. We’re talking about archeological findings which have actually been condemned or rejected by the establishment because they go against the currently existing theories. The controversy of this archeological information, however, has taken place mainly within the academic domain – because there’s not so much popular interest in old bones and stones and so on and so forth. There’s some interest, but it’s not so great. In this field of UFOs, however, the situation is a bit different. Here we have a body of information that has been very strongly condemned by the existing intellectual establishment, and it is also of great popular interest. Furthermore, it has military implications, and that’s an aspect that leads to a great many very complicated political considerations. So, the result is that the subject of UFOs has been subjected to a great deal of misrepresentation. 

However, at the core of the subject, there is a lot of very interesting, high quality empirical evidence indicating that, in fact, there are other species of human life in the universe. So, that’s documented in this book. And what I do in the book is compare the characteristics of the other species of human life but discuss it within the subject of the UFO phenomenon. I compare these accounts with the characteristics of different species of human life [unclear] in the Vedic literature, and there is a sense of parallel in the accounts. In fact, there are about 40 different, very specific, parallel features between the descriptions of the beings in the UFO accounts and the description you will find of certain subsidiary human races described in the Vedic literature. So, this is all – actually, both of these books are relevant to the question of the nature and origin of life, and they represent different aspects of our investigation of that basic subject.  

I’d like to make another interesting observation about the UFO subject. At the “Parliament of the World’s Religions,” a psychiatrist from Harvard University Medical School, named John Mack, gave a lecture on reported UFO abductions. So it’s interesting to see a man with those credentials give a lecture on such a subject. And he was quite serious. He studied the cases of about 70 different people who’ve had encounters with beings from UFOs and so forth. So he was giving a lecture on this subject, and it was very interesting to see the basic conclusion that he drew. Mack’s basic conclusion was that these UFO phenomena represent the intrusion of beings from some other reality into our reality. He said that the basic conclusion you could draw was that these beings were coming from some other dimension. Their bodies are more subtle than our bodies – or, less dense. He didn’t use the word “subtle.” He said they’re less dense than our bodies, in some fashion. And they are somehow living in some other world, some other plane of reality, and they’re breaking through into our world, and manifesting themselves before people. And he discussed this as a phenomenon of spiritual transformation. He said that the net effect of this UFO phenomenon is that people are being awakened to the reality of some other world, which should be called spiritual or subtle or higher dimensional or something like that. Now, in saying this, I should point out that this Dr. Mack is coming from a background in Freudian psychology, as he specifically pointed out. And you may know that Freudian psychology is very much based on a materialistic, mechanistic picture of life. So, it’s very interesting that he would come up with conclusions like that.  

[36:20]

It was also interesting to see that, at different lectures I attended at the “Parliament of the World’s Religions,” this was the only one in which it was alleged that there are other intelligent beings in the universe that are actually real living beings with bodies, with minds, with intelligence, with programs of activity, and so forth. Everyone else was making everything abstract and symbolical – at least at those of the lectures that I attended, which, of course, was only a small fraction of the total. But it was interesting to see that he was bringing up the idea that there could be actual living beings coming in from some other dimension. Actually, this is why, if this is recognized within modern science, it will have a tremendous impact with the way that scientists view the world because, for one thing, it completely turns upside down the whole picture of evolution. 

After all, while they become satisfied with the idea that maybe humans have evolved from apes through gradual changes over many millions of years – [unclear] actually, two million years, according to the [unclear] science. But, if you then have human beings of a completely different type coming from some other dimension, how do you fit that into the theory of evolution? Clearly, what that will require is a total restructuring of our thoughts as to what’s really going on in the material world. So it’s interesting to see these developments occurring within modern science. And, in fact, I’ve been in contact with 500 different scientists who are taking these supposedly bizarre and disreputable phenomena quite seriously. Actually, they’re bizarre and disreputable because they so strongly challenge the prevailing materialistic view, which will say that life is only a chemical phenomenon on the surface of this planet, and it couldn’t be anything higher dimensional or subtle or spiritual or anything like that. Yet, we find today that empirical evidence is being presented by scientists – by a psychiatrist from Harvard Medical School and other similarly qualified people – indicating perhaps there is some other dimension, some more subtle realms of existence, and so forth. So this ties in, in an interesting way, with the account given in Vedic literature, and it will be interesting to see how things develop in the future. So I’ll stop there. We’ve probably gone over time a little bit. Are there any questions?  Yeah?

Question:  I have a quick question [unclear]. I understand Prabhupāda said that the maker of religions wants someone to love God. [unclear] looking at religions – it seems that they basically have regulative principles and to think about God as much as you can. And what I’m wondering is, through the plurality of religions, how does one decide which one is the best one? There are so many.

Answer:  Well, the… you mentioned the criteria which Prabhupāda gave. There are many different systems of religion which are genuine which can be used to elevate the consciousness of the individual. These are classified extensively in Vedic literature. For example, they are classified according to categories of karma, jñāna, and bhakti. That’s one way to classify it. They are classified according to modes of nature – goodness, passion, and ignorance. And there are many more details in these classifications. Basically, bhakti is the highest manifestation of religion, but karma and jñāna are also important. 

[40:34]

Karma basically refers to a form of religion in which one engages in different religious rituals with the aim of getting material results, whether it be a Christian who goes to church so that he will get material rewards – as is the case in many Christian communities – or a person in India who is worshiping the demigods so as to be promoted to a heavenly planet and so on. This is all in the category of karma. And then there’s jñāna, in which the emphasis is on knowledge. This is higher than karma. In religions oriented towards jñāna, there is an emphasis on understanding what is spirit as opposed to what is material. But, ultimately, this culminates merely in abstract understanding. Understanding is necessary, but you have to do more than that. You have to come to the point of actually loving God. So, that’s where bhakti comes in. And bhakti can be mixed. There’s karma-miśra-bhakti and jñāna-miśra-bhakti – that’s the bhakti mixed with karma, bhakti mixed with jñāna, and so on and so forth. So the Vedic system gives a complete classification of different religions, and without condemning any of them, it classifies them as to higher and lower. So, the highest form of religion, then, is to develop pure love of God. And many of us, even here in this room, are not quite at that platform yet. But that’s what we should aim for. So, anyway – a few observations. Yeah?

Question:  Actually, karma or jñāna would be – from what I understood from reading scripture, and I’ve been hearing from you on these things. Are these three one, and one three? Because true karma-yoga means you have to have jñāna and bhakti. True jñāna-yoga is not true unless you have karma-yoga and bhakti also. And in bhakti-yoga, you also have to have karma and jñāna too  Alright, so these three are one – like, one plane is three ways. Can these three be one, in a way, because true karma-yoga is not a karma-yoga unless you have a bhakti and a jñāna [?].

Answer:  This is true. But, of course, a person’s religion is the religion of that person. So, a given person may be pursuing karma-yoga – they may not realize the importance of the bhakti aspect, which is there. Because real karma-yoga means to do everything for Kṛṣṇa.

Q:  Right.

A:  Do your work for Kṛṣṇa, and then that’s bhakti. So, it’s true what you’re saying – that karma and bhakti, in that sense, are one, but a person may not realize that, and he may be doing karma in order to get good fruitive benefits. So his understanding has to be elevated. Likewise, in jñāna, the ultimate jñāna means knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. Of course, the bhakta has knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, so he has  jñāna. But a person may be pursuing  jñāna with the aim of impersonal realization. He may actually have it in his heart, the goal, that I shall attain an identity with the Supreme, which is a very common goal in jñāna-yoga. So he doesn’t have, yet, the perfected understanding of jñāna. So, different people are on different platforms based on their state of consciousness. Yes?

Q:  Do you honestly believe that [unclear]?

A:  Ah, yes, certainly that can happen. The theory of evolution is very prominent today, but it wasn’t always so. Darwin came out with his book, Origin of the Species, in 1859. And before that time, the predominant, accepted view in intellectual circles in Europe was divine creation.  So, right up until 1859, that was the predominant view. So after Darwin’s theory came out – of course, it’s a very complex story, all the different factors involved in the final [unclear] in the theory of evolution – it took about 30 years for the theory of evolution to become thoroughly accepted. So now that theory is very solidly established. And one may think: Well, how can that ever change? But, if you consider the time since 1859 is quite brief – considering the thousands of years of time past – so that also can change. And the way in which that will probably change in the future is that science begins to recognize the reality of the subtle energies. To go to spiritual levels of understanding would be quite a leap. But the subtle energies are interacting just beyond the level of the gross energies, and, as science begins to learn about these, then alternatives to the evolutionary way of thought would then… should become more and more attractive to science. So, you will…[ends abruptly]