“Sum Total of Reality” (SB 4.21.13)

TRANSCRIPT:  Srimad-Bhagavatam, Canto 4, Chapter 21, Text 13. “Sum Total of Reality.” Alachua – 2000 / (051)

Translation: 

Once upon a time King Pṛthu initiated the performance of a very great sacrifice in which great saintly sages, brāhmaṇas, demigods from higher planetary systems and great saintly kings known as rājarṣis all assembled together. 

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: 

In this verse the most significant point is that although King Pṛthu’s residential quarters were in India, between the rivers Ganges and Yamunā, the demigods also participated in the great sacrifice he performed. This indicates that formerly the demigods used to come to this planet. Similarly, great personalities like Arjuna, Yudhiṣṭhira and many others used to visit higher planetary systems. Thus there was interplanetary communication via suitable airplanes and space vehicles. 

om ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ 

śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale

svayaṁ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṁ dadāti sva-padāntikam

So the translation: 

Once upon a time King Pṛthu initiated the performance of a very great sacrifice in which great saintly sages, brāhmaṇas, demigods from higher planetary systems and great saintly kings known as rājarṣis all assembled together. 

So, we have another interplanetary verse. Previous first made an interesting point, I’ll just read that one again. It says, 

Mahārāja Pṛthu was an unrivaled king and possessed the scepter for ruling all the seven islands on the surface of the globe. No one could disobey his irrevocable orders but the saintly persons, the brāhmaṇas and the descendants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead [the Vaiṣṇavas]. 

So, there it is stated that the king was ruling the seven islands. The Sanskrit for that is Sapta-dvīpa, and Śrīla Prabhupāda notes in the purport that this refers to Asia, Europe, Africa, North America, South America, Australia, and Oceania. I suppose Oceania would mean Polynesia. So it turns out that there are different levels of meaning in the cosmology of the Bhāgavatam. And the seven islands have at least two different meanings. Actually, there are three major ones that I could mention. And this is related to the whole question of just what the position of king Pṛthu was and where he was ruling. So on the one hand, Sapta-dvīpa refers to land areas on the surface of the globe. Now the earth globe that we're familiar with is pretty small on a cosmic scale. We tend to think of it as quite big. But it's about 8000 miles in diameter. So, and if you go around the earth following the equator, that would come to about 25,000 miles. So that's the size of the earth globe.

So Sapta-dvīpa is a bit larger than that. It's part of Bhū-maṇḍala which is a disk, which is about four billion miles in diameter. So you can compare four billion miles with 25,000 miles. So the earth as we know it is like a little speck compared to this disk of Bhū-maṇḍala. And in Bhū-maṇḍala, there are different subdivisions. There are actually 18 different circular rings, which are subdivisions of Bhū-maṇḍala, but this includes seven islands and oceans. The word for island is dvīpa. Dvīpa means two waters actually. Dvī is two and pa – apa – is water. So, it refers to a piece of land with water on either side of it. While the arrangement of Sapta-dvīpa is that there's a central island, which is called Jambūdvīpa that's circular in shape, but that's surrounded by an ocean that goes around that in a ring. And then that in turn is surrounded by another island called Plakṣadvīpa, which is also ring-shaped. And that's surrounded by another ocean, and then by another island, and so on, until you have seven dvīpas or islands. So the ring-shaped islands actually do have water on two sides, namely each one has an inside and an outside, where there is an ocean. 

[5:32] 

So this is Sapta-dvīpa and if you go out to the seventh dvīpa, that's Puṣkaradvīpa, running down the center of that there is a mountain. Well, this mountain is also a ring. All of these different features – islands, oceans, mountains and so forth – they're all circles. That's a little bit different from mountains that we're accustomed to, or islands for that matter. But going around the center of that ring of Puṣkaradvīpa, there's a ring shaped mountain. It's like a circular racetrack and on this mountain the wheel of the chariot of the sun-god is rotating. So, you can imagine a chariot that has one wheel; the axle from that wheel goes into the center, where you find Mount Meru. So Mount Meru is like a pivot and this axle is moving around with the wheel rotating on top of Mānasottara mountain. And the radius of that is about... comes to 126 million miles – that's the radius of Mount Mānasottara. So, that's the description of Sapta-dvīpa. 

Well, it says that Mahārāja Pṛthu was ruling that. So, but Śrīla Prabhupādaa also says here that Mahārāja Pṛthu was ruling on this earth globe, which is only 25,000 miles around the equator. So another meaning of Sapta-dvīpa does refer to earthly geography. If you look in the Jyotiṣa Śāstras – Jyotiṣa Śāstras are books on astronomy and traditionally they're used by astrologers in India to calculate the position of the planets in the different signs of the zodiac – so the Jyotiṣa Śāstras, generally speaking, also describe Sapta-dvīpa. And they describe this in terms of the continents on the surface of the earth. So the continent of Jambūdvīpa can actually be identified with a region of... well Southern Asia. Basically, if you visualize the map of Southern Asia, you have India extending down as a peninsula. Then above that, there are the Himalayan mountains. Then you have Tibet, which is called the roof of the world, because it's a very high elevation and there's a series of mountain ranges up to the north. Then north of that, the land level  out again and you have Siberia going up to the Arctic Ocean. So, that's going north from India. 

If you take that mountainous region around Tibet and the Himalayan Mountain region, and you go to the east, you come into China and there are different mountain ranges there also. Then if you go to the west you finally come out into Kazakhstan, different breakaway republics of the Soviet Union, and you come finally to the Caspian Sea. So that whole area can be identified as Jambūdvīpa. And in fact, one can go into a great deal of specific detail on the different geographical features. The Bhāgavatam gives us, for example, a very clear indication that Bhārata-varṣa, which is part of Jambūdvīpa, must be India. Jambūdvīpa is divided into nine different regions, which are called varṣas, and the southernmost of these is Bhārata-varṣa. There are other Purāṇas, for example the Matsya Purāṇa and the Vāyu Purāṇa, which go into detail on the different mountain ranges to the North. Of course, directly north of Bhārata-varṣa  you find the Himalayas, which makes sense if Bhārata-varṣa is India. So, one can identify these different regions with Jambūdvīpa. So that's another meaning, then, of this Sapta-dvīpa. Then other continents and areas on the earth globe would correspond to the other dvīpas, and of course, that's what Śrīla Prabhupāda refers to in this list right here. 

[10:29]

So in today's verse, it stated that we have sages, brāhmaṇas, and demigods from higher planetary systems coming to Mahārāja Pṛthu’s sacrifice. And Śrīla Prabhupāda refers to suitable airplanes and space vehicles. Well, we could give the example of Arjuna. Let's see, Arjuna, at a certain point, had an ambition of obtaining celestial weapons. He thought that given his basic role in life it would be good if he had celestial weapons with which to wipe out his various enemies. So, he used the traditional approach to obtaining such weapons, namely he walked up into the Himalayas and began to practice yoga in different ways. So in the course of that, quite a number of different things happened. For example, he had an encounter with Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva appeared before him as a mountain man, a local inhabitant, rather rustic looking fellow. And naturally there was a challenge and they fought each other. And needless to say, Lord Śiva won after a long drawn-out battle, but he thought Arjuna did a pretty good job of fighting. So he conferred upon Arjuna his Paśupati weapon. So, Arjuna continued his tapasya, in an effort to obtain celestial weapons. And at a certain point, Indra who just happened to be Arjuna's father, curiously enough, sent down his charioteer Mātali. So Mātali’s chariot descended before Arjuna, who was standing doing penance on some mountain up in the Himalayas. And Arjuna got on board, and the chariot took off into outer space. 

Curiously enough, just yesterday about 6:30, I saw the shuttle take off. Did anybody notice it? Yeah, it was quite an impressive sight. You could see this huge cloud of exhaust fumes equal to the pollution produced by Los Angeles in six months. So, anyway this huge cloud of fumes arced up and you could see this bright light at the tip of the expanding smoke cloud – that's the rocket engines of the solid fuel booster rockets. And then at a certain point that cut out and you could see this one little dot continuing and two little dots were following behind it. So that's when it jettisoned the boosters and continued on its course into orbit. So, that's the modern technology. Fortunately, they don't send those things off too often or we would basically be breathing poisonous gas, I think. But it seems that in the old days, there was interplanetary travel. So this chariot, as it's called, of Mātali, went up through the sky and it entered the region of the stars. 

This is a rather interesting description, because... this is in the Mahābhārata. It’s stated that the stars are extremely large, but they seemed tiny like oil flames from the earth, due to the great distance. And these are self-luminous bodies, it is described. And they are the hearths of great Kings, who are elevated to heaven on the basis of proper kṣatriya conduct in battle and so forth.  So, it's a curious mixed description, because on the one hand, it's saying the stars are very large and self-luminous and they look tiny because of the great distance. At the same time, they're inhabited places where various Kings are living who were elevated to heaven. And also, Apsarās and Gandharvas and so forth are living there, it is described. 

[15:10]

So Arjuna went into this region of stars and it is said the sun and the moon were not visible there, which is interesting because according to modern science, if you were to travel far enough to be in the midst of some stars, in outer space, then you wouldn't be seeing the sun and the moon. Or at least the sun would just be one tiny star among so many others. So then Arjuna continued and he came to Amarāvatī, the capital of Indra. And met Indra himself, which was appropriate, considering that that was his father, actually. Indra had, as it turns out, a political use for Arjuna. Of course Indra is very expert politically. It seems that certain Dānavas, certain asuras, had acquired a benediction from Brahmā – another of these troublemaking benedictions! It seems that they were given the benediction that they could travel about in a flying city without being disturbed by the demigods and they were free to do whatever they liked. So, these Dānavas, it seems, had an actual flying city. And this is something that is speculated about by modern science fiction writers, the idea is that if you could go up into outer space, you could construct a flying city. In fact, I guess that's what the Space Shuttle was going up for. It was bringing up some piece of this International Space Station that they're trying to build up there. 

So, these Dānavas had already done this many thousands of years ago. And their city was quite effectively constructed: It could fly about at will, it could visit any of the planets of the demigods, and so forth. But apparently, they were somewhat of a thorn in the side of Indra, who perhaps didn't appreciate their independent tendencies, based on their benediction that they got from Lord Brahmā. So the benediction was, of course, that they could not be destroyed by any demigod. So conveniently, Arjuna, even though he was the son of a demigod, also counted as a human being, because his mother, Queen Kuntī, was human. So, Indra said: Okay, you're the person who can destroy these Dānavas, because by a legal technicality the curse doesn't apply, or the benediction doesn't apply, to you.” So he then conferred upon Arjuna all the celestial weapons of the demigods, and Arjuna set out in search of this flying city. And then of course, there was a tremendous battle. And let's see, well, all kinds of things happened.

This flying city demonstrated some unique properties, by the way. It was able to fly through outer space, it was able to come down into the atmosphere of the earth,, and curiously enough, it was able to fly underground. Now people don't usually think about that when it comes to flying machines. This is a somewhat unique feature, but apparently it was able to render itself so that it would not interact with the rock of the earth and actually fly through the solid earth, and then come up in another place. But Arjuna was able to destroy it anyway.

I recall, I think he finally had to invoke the Paśupati weapon and that finished off the flying city. But so it seems that interplanetary travel has been around for quite a long time, according to these various descriptions. And King Pṛthu himself had interplanetary connections, it would appear, if you look at the different meanings of Sapta-dvīpa. So, are there any questions? Yeah? 

Question:  [unclear]

[19:55]

Answer:  Yes, that’s a good question: Why, if the earth is so tiny, is the earth significant in all these cosmic affairs? Well, that is a curious question indeed. Of course, in the Bhāgavatam and in other Vedic literatures it's stated that the demigods are desiring to take birth on the earth because of the opportunities for self-realization, which are possible in the human form of life. So, the earth is very small; Śrīla Prabhupāda also says the earth is insignificant, and he refers to vast numbers of different inhabited planets within the universe. Apparently though, the human form of life, apparently, seems to be fairly unique. Of course, in one sense the demigods also have human form, that is, they look like human beings, very beautiful human beings. We have, though, the unique benediction that we have highly developed consciousness, or at least we potentially have highly developed consciousness. But at the same time, we have an extremely short lifespan and we have very little really to attract us to this life, although we still manage to find many objects of attraction.

So, it seems that the human form of life is a sort of juncture point in which you can easily move off to a higher stage of liberation. At the same time, you can mire yourself more deeply in material entanglement. But the human form of life, though, is fairly short in duration. Just a few decades and the whole thing is over, whereas the demigods typically have extremely long life spans. For example, it is said that one day in the life of the demigods corresponds to a full year of the earth. And typically, you have life spans of millions of years and so forth. And you might think: Well, wouldn't it be nice to have an extended life span? 

The curious thing is, by the way, that lower... the lowest forms of life on the earth are essentially immortal. This is a curious point to consider. Like bacteria, for example, a bacterium just grows and then divides into two bacteria, which then grow; and if you let them keep going, they'll keep dividing until they produce vast numbers of descendants. Of course, they can be destroyed and they're being destroyed all the time or else we'd be taken over totally by bacteria. But they never grow old. There's no such thing as a senile bacteria. So... and then again, if you look at human beings or plants, animals, and so forth, you'll see some of our cells are immortal also. Because the curious thing is when a baby is born it starts out young. Now this is curious, isn't it, because the parents are going to get older and older and they'll die off in due course but the child starts out young, then it gets older but if it produces a child – that child also starts out young. So, if you trace given cells all the way through the generations, from one generation to the next, there have to be certain cells which never grow old. And it turns out that the aging process in the human body is pre-programmed. So, the cells are programmed so that at a certain point they stop dividing and they begin to deteriorate. In fact, there's a natural process of cellular suicide called “apoptosis,” in which cells at a certain point self-destruct. So, actually these bodies are built so as to self-destruct. That's why we grow old, it's not that it's inevitable, but it's programmed that way. 

And then you might ask: Well who's responsible for that programming? Of course, scientists today are working very hard to reverse this effect. So the idea is: Well, if we can monkey with the machinery, find the right switches to throw, then we can make all of the cells immortal. And so the present generation will keep on going. And all the children will now remain unemployed and have to go on welfare. So, in any case, it seems that the human form of life is actually designed to provide a window of consciousness that is fairly brief, in which you have the opportunity to take off to higher spiritual levels. Now, why that should be focused on one little planet is a good question, but that's the picture that we see presented. Any other questions? Yeah? 

[25:40] 

Question:  [unclear]

Answer:  By the time the microphone gets there, I should just repeat the question.

Q: That Arjuna left from the earthly planet, went to the heavenly planet, residing there for what seemed to be very short of time; of course, when he came back a much longer time had passed. It would seem there would’ve been some type of impact on his body aging process during that. 

A:  Oh, the question of the different life spans on different planets. Well, yeah, a general theme that one can notice is the whole idea that in the realm of the demigods, there's a different scale of time than the time on the earth. The most striking example would be Lord Brahmā. When he hid the cowherd boys in a cave, he left and it is said that he was rather worried about doing this – thought he was playing with fire, actually – and so he came back within a moment of his time. But that was one year on the earth. And then there's the story of King Kakudmī, who wanted Brahmā to provide a husband for his daughter, Revatī. So he went up to Brahmaloka and they were there, it would appear, for about an hour; and when he came back millions of years had passed on the earth. So the question was... well, let's take the example of the king. He went up and spent millions of years on Brahmaloka, why didn't he die since such a long period of time had passed? Of course, the answer would be that he must have entered into a different atmosphere in which the functioning of his own body was altered, because he also experienced about a half... about an hour of time on Brahmaloka. 

Another point that could be made is that in various places it is stated that if you go to the flying city of Indra – Indra also has a flying city by the way – one of the features of that city is that anyone who comes there becomes completely free of old age and disease. Apparently the demigods not only live for a very long period of time, but they don't experience disease and old age. What happens to them is that when they reach the end of their life span, very quickly they die. There's a description that when a demigod reaches the end of their life span, their garland, which has been extremely fresh and beautiful for eons of time, suddenly wilts. And then all the other demigods notice “Uh oh! You’d better start praying, my fellow demigod, and hope that you can come back here quickly.” So then they all abandon this particular demigod, knowing that he's about to leave their company. And so the demigod typically feels considerable remorse, realizing that within a very short time they're going to die. So, the bodily functions are organized differently on the higher planets. And apparently, even a human body can be caused to function for an indefinite span of time. It is, after all, a matter of engineering, because the human body is actually built to self-destruct. Yeah? 

Q:  [unclear]

[30:48]

A:  Well, the question is, “What happened with the timing in the case of Arjuna?” I'd have to look more carefully to see exactly what the different time spans were. Arjuna didn't go as far as Brahmaloka. So, one might say that there could have been a smaller time ratio in the case of Arjuna than there was in the case of, say, the king who went to Brahmaloka. So, the question is, how much time did pass on the earth when Arjuna went to Indraloka, and how long did he spend there. That is in terms of time as he experienced it. And of course during part of that time, he was busy fighting with this flying city. Apparently that was taking place in the vicinity of the earth, because the flying city flew down to the level of the earth and even within it, at least on some occasions. So, the… one would have to research this but it seems to me the ratio of passage of time in the case of going to Indraloka may be different from that for going to Brahmaloka. Yeah? 

Q:  This description that you gave earlier of all the rings: Is that subtle or a gross manifestation? Because nobody's looking out with the Hubble telescope and seeing this chariot axle going around. So, can you explain what the perspective is? 

A:  Okay, concerning the rings of Sapta-dvīpa, well, one thing about the sun's chariot is the Bhāgavatam explicitly said that it's made of the parts of the year, such as days, months, seasons, and so forth. So, you can imagine that the Hubble telescope probably wouldn't enable you to see a chariot made of the parts of the year. The chariot is described in metaphorical terms, as for the... for example, the wheel has three naves referring to the three cātur-māsya periods making up twelve months, and twelve spokes corresponding to the twelve months of the year, and so forth. As for the rings of Sapta-dvīpa, one thing that I observed, and that's described in the book that came out, Mysteries of the Sacred Universe, these correspond to the geocentric orbits of the planets, namely Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. If you look at the... take the earth as fixed in the center, the orbit of a planet looks like a spirograph pattern, because the planetary orbit is actually based on a combination of two motions. 

For example, if you take Mars, the geocentric orbit of Mars is based on the heliocentric orbit of the earth combined with the heliocentric orbit of Mars, so it's a spiral that rotates around. So, if you look at this spiral that is rotating around, you'll see that it has an outer edge and an inner edge – it sort of makes a doughnut shape. In fact if you plot the orbit, run it on a computer, it will make a spiral that rotates around and gradually fills in solidly a complete doughnut shape. Well, the inner boundary of that doughnut shape turns out to be one of the rings of Sapta-dvīpa; the outer ring also is one of the rings of Sapta-dvīpa. And this is true for the planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. And it's quite an accurate correlation. So, it turns out that these dvīpas provide a map of the solar system, with pretty good accuracy. So that's part of the situation. Yes? 

[35:10] 

Q:  This idea of traveling to the higher planetary systems and the time seeming to change, where a moment there is a very long time here – can you reverse that? Can you go to a lower planetary system perhaps, and keep going to lower and lower planetary systems, and will your time expand? Will your time down there, hundreds of years there, could you return and not even a moment has passed? Does it work like that, conversely? And is there in all that, is there some idea of time travel, is there any? Is this where the idea of time travel comes from, or is that where you look for this ability for time travel? Is there any time travel?

A:  Well, in answer to the first part of the question, the curious thing is that if you go to the lower planetary systems, you also find that the time is going on at a slower rate. In other words, you could go to a lower planetary system, come back, and even though you were there for a short period of time, a long period of time would have passed on the earth. So the lower planetary systems are also referred to by the term svarga; specifically, Bila-svarga, which literally means “heaven in a cave,” which is a curious concept. But it's described that... for example, in the Mahābhārata it's described in various places how you can go down into the lower worlds by going through a tunnel. So you go down through a tunnel into the earth and you come out into this region where there is sky, clouds, beautiful cities, all kinds of vegetation, and so forth. But there's no sun. The illumination is provided in a different way somehow. The reference is given to the jewels on the hoods of the Nagas, for example, illuminating the lower worlds. 

The situation of life there is even more opulent than it is on the planet of Indra. But there is no development of spiritual life. Everyone in these lower worlds is completely materialistic. But it appears you have the same kind of time difference. And you have beings in the lower worlds who live for extremely long periods, such as Maya Dānava, for example. So, the lower worlds are sort of a counterpart of the higher worlds it would seem. Yeah? 

Q:  [unclear]... Oh seems there it explains how the... when the Yamadūtas are reforming the sinful living entity, their sufferings appear to be going on for a very long time, but actually it's only a moment. So, maybe that's the hellish planets... that seems like it's a little different situation.

A:  Well, yeah, of course that is the hellish planets. The description is given of the road along which the soul is being carried. That seems to refer to the general observation that if you're undergoing some punishment, time seems to pass slowly. Of course subjectively, we experience time passing at different rates. It seems that during childhood it passes very slowly. Then you become an adult and then, you know, a year goes by and it's just like : “wait a minute,” like yesterday, wait… so, yeah, for the hellish planets it may be a different situation. So, the soul being subjected to punishment experiences that as being very extended. Yeah? 

Q:  [unclear]... The incarnations of the Lord appear in other places, is that within other universes, there's a planet like the earth where that happens or… ? 

[39:43]

Yes, the question is: Is this earth the only earthly planet in which you have human life, which is favored as an opportunity for self-realization and so forth? Well, of course there are descriptions of many universes, many brahmāṇḍas. The brahmāṇḍa, as described in the Bhāgavatam, basically covers the Solar System in terms of the features that are specifically described. However, there are many brahmāṇḍas. Brahmāṇḍa of course means Brahmā egg. The universe is compared to an egg. And this egg is said to be surrounded by shells of the different elements, so that there are seven shells; in some places it’s said there are eight shells. So, each brahmāṇḍa, surrounded by shells, is floating in the causal ocean, and it's described that these are as numerous as bubbles of foam in the ocean. So in all of these different brahmāṇḍas there will be different inhabited planets and so forth. So that description is given. So of course it’s said that Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes rotate through the different universes in the different planetary systems. So that's compared to whirling of a torch, which you get an arc of light produced by whirling the torch. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes are continually going on in different planetary systems. So, that's described. Okay. 

Q:  So Prabhupāda describes Sapta-dvīpa in terms of this earth. So, does that... does that correspond to the modern idea of the continents, those seven islands? 

A:  Well, yes. That's what he mentioned in the previous…

Q:  North Pole, North America…

A:  Yeah, there are two places in the Bhāgavatam where he gives a list of continents corresponding to Sapta-dvīpa. The two lists are not exactly the same, but the idea is that these dvīpas can refer to different continents on the earth. If you analyze the description of the different geographical features on these continents, as I mentioned, this region of southern Asia or Central Asia really, that I mentioned before, really corresponds quite closely to Jambūdvīpa. But then there's less detail enabling you to identify the other dvīpas. So, I think I should stop there. One more question. 

Q:  There's an idea of the earth surface shifting and the continents kind of drifting. Is that somehow a Vedic conception, there is just...? 

A:  Well, the question is about continental drift: Is that a Vedic conception? Not to my knowledge. In some of the Jyotiṣa Śāstras I believe in the Surya-siddhanta for example, it is said that in the course of a yuga cycle sediment of about one yojana in depth accumulates on the surface of the earth. And then that gets eroded away. And then again sediment accumulates, which is a rather interesting conception because the whole idea in geology is you have these different strata of the earth that gradually accumulate. As for the continents drifting, I don't know of any reference to that. I'll mention, though, that in the recent issue of Journal of Scientific Exploration, there was an article on plate tectonics and continental drift, which is the best refutation of the whole concept that I’ve ever seen. Basically, it just tears apart the theory of continental drift. It's amazing to see that that can be done, because that theory seemed to be so solidly established and all opposing viewpoints had been thoroughly refuted. And so, then this author just rips apart the whole theory. So, that can happen to theories sometimes.